Kleeneze scam

[Embassy]

Why a scam?

Looks genuine and I am interested in earning some extra cash.

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Embassy
Why a scam?
Looks genuine and I am interested in earning some extra cash.

It's hard work...
you can earn some good money.
I made £340 in my first 4 weeks and after 10 months I'm making over £1000 a
month.

Not sure if you've had any other info but If you fill in the form on my site
I'd be more than happy to send you a free CD-ROM.

Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

[Embassy]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Embassy
Why a scam?
Looks genuine and I am interested in earning some extra cash.

It's hard work...
you can earn some good money.
I made £340 in my first 4 weeks and after 10 months I'm making over £1000 a
month.
Not sure if you've had any other info but If you fill in the form on my site
I'd be more than happy to send you a free CD-ROM.
Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

?????????????

The cheque is for £44,604.59. How much of this is his and how much does he
have to pay out, and to who?

dated 22.2.2001? thats a long time ago?

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Embassy
The cheque is for £44,604.59. How much of this is his and how much does he
have to pay out, and to who?

The Cheque is one of Gavin's he actually earns more than that now (I need to
update the cheque really)!
It's a big cheque I know but I know how much effort Gavin put in, in the
early days. belive me he's earned every penny!
It's all his less maybe a few hundred quid for expenses(advertising etc) and
what the man in the bowler hat takes.
We don't have to pay our team out of our cheque the company deals with all
that and makes the payment via bacs.

Post by Embassy
dated 22.2.2001? thats a long time ago?

Yep your right maybe it's time I updated the cheque with a newer one!
the cheque is small though when you look at the fact we're only in the UK
and Ireland at the moment.
When we go into europe next year the cheques will get bigger for those who
are willing to put in the graft.

Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

[Martin Willett]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Embassy
The cheque is for £44,604.59. How much of this is his and how much does he
have to pay out, and to who?

The Cheque is one of Gavin's he actually earns more than that now (I need to
update the cheque really)!
It's a big cheque I know but I know how much effort Gavin put in, in the
early days. belive me he's earned every penny!
It's all his less maybe a few hundred quid for expenses(advertising etc) and
what the man in the bowler hat takes.
We don't have to pay our team out of our cheque the company deals with all
that and makes the payment via bacs.

Post by Embassy
dated 22.2.2001? thats a long time ago?

Yep your right maybe it's time I updated the cheque with a newer one!
the cheque is small though when you look at the fact we're only in the UK
and Ireland at the moment.
When we go into europe next year the cheques will get bigger for those who
are willing to put in the graft.
Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

I was recruited by Kleeneze in 1985, with the projected growth rates and
recruitment levels why isn't everybody in the entire world a Kleeneze
representative yet?

"Only in the UK and Ireland at the moment" suggests that this is a young
company or that the MLM approach is some new departure. It isn't.

Kleeneze has been bumping along at very similar levels for decades, it works
on the enthusiasm of recruits. It is constantly expanding, the sound of
huffing and puffing can clearly be heard, just like a balloon with a big
hole in it. Some people do make money at it, I have no doubt. But the vast
majority of Kleeneze representatives flog themselves and their cars hard for
a few months and struggle to make a reasonable living.

I used to work for Betterware, who sell the same kind of products but with a
totally different marketing approach (and much higher turnover). Many failed
or sacked managers from Betterware became Kleeneze representatives. Most had
given up and took another job after a few months. I knew one called Dave
Smith, but then it's a common name, isn't it?

You can make money from Kleeneze, it is possible, but you do need lots of
drive. I knew many people with lots of drive who tried and failed. Many
times they tried to recruit me on the streets, they talked big but they had
that look: worn shoes, dirty cars, the smell of sweat, damp and mothballs.

I've never met anybody who made the kind of money shown in the examples on
that site. Just initials, notice that? Perhaps "the man in the bowler hat"
is the reason?

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Martin Willett
Kleeneze has been bumping along at very similar levels for decades,

1992 turnover £6m 2002 turnover £100m that's blew that augment out of the
water.

Post by Martin Willett
I used to work for Betterware, who sell the same kind of products but with a
totally different marketing approach (and much higher turnover).

Betterware was actually formed by 2 former Kleeneze distributors.
not sure about the higher turnover bit. but after talking to one of their
accountants last year I'm surprised that they're still around.

Post by Martin Willett
Many failed
or sacked managers from Betterware became Kleeneze representatives. Most had
given up and took another job after a few months. I knew one called Dave
Smith, but then it's a common name, isn't it?

Wasn't me, why would I want to put betterware books out for 20% commission?
and to be told where and when I'd got to drop books.

Post by Martin Willett
You can make money from Kleeneze, it is possible, but you do need lots of
drive. I knew many people with lots of drive who tried and failed. Many
times they tried to recruit me on the streets, they talked big but they had
that look: worn shoes, dirty cars, the smell of sweat, damp and mothballs.

Takes a lot of drive to be successful in ANYTHING.
Now if you look at our local betterware guy he drives a battered old
Renault.
I don't! maybe you're getting a little confused here?

Post by Martin Willett
I've never met anybody who made the kind of money shown in the examples on
that site. Just initials, notice that? Perhaps "the man in the bowler hat"
is the reason?

Okay names of the guys in the pictures.

Tony Briffa - earns over £10,000 every 4 weeks
Bob Dalton and Sue Marshall, earn over £13,000 every 4 weeks
Andy Stephenson and Claire Branch - £8,000 4 weekly
Rob Gibbons - around £6,000 4 weekly part time.
Bob Webb - £500,000 every year highest paid in the business.
Name escapes me at the moment
Danny Young - £5,000 every 4 weeks (ex parliamentary secretary)
Eamon Lynch - £13,000 4 weekly (Ireland)
Keith Robertson - around the £8000 mark every 4 weeks
John hawkes - over £20,000 every 4 weeks, (started his business at age 58).

By the way Martin none of these guys where in the business in 1985 Bob
joined September 1992.


Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

[Ken Johnson]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
Takes a lot of drive to be successful in ANYTHING.
Now if you look at our local betterware guy he drives a battered old
Renault.

My local Pyramid-O-Kleen guy drives a big car because he has no brains of
any kind and no taste and no common sense. Such people often imagine big
cars to be useful, or even desirable.

Besides, as he is an MLM scammer, he needs a vehicle that goes faster than a
police car, and that costs money.

Ken "I earn ?51,000 pa plus bonus and I drive a bus pass" Johnson

[Stewart Robert Hinsley]

Post by Embassy
Why a scam?
Looks genuine and I am interested in earning some extra cash.

As MLM schemes go Kleeneze isn't so bad.

There's two parts to the Kleeneze business model. The first part is the
catalog sales. This is pretty much legitimate (though I suspect that
Betterware would be a better deal), but does not provide a large income.
If you want to make a small income then Kleeneze catalog sales is
probably OK, but check for potential out of pocket expenses - I've read
reports of a couple of gotchas. It may well be better than some of the
agented sales businesses, which offload their working capital costs by
having the agents own and hold the stock.

The second part is the selling of distributorships. A few people make a
lot of money this way, but Kleeneze is often promoted as if this is a
reasonable prospect for the average participant. This is MLM, and is
inherently flawed. Even though Kleeneze are not directly responsible for
the worse excesses, their business model tacitly encourages them, and I
place Kleeneze with tobacco and gambling companies as unethical
businesses in which I will not invest, or otherwise patronise.

Betterware's web site is at http://www.betterware.co.uk.

See <URL:http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html> for a discussion of some of
the problems with MLM as a business model. Also <URL:http://www.themlmfi
le.com/resources.php>.

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
There's two parts to the Kleeneze business model. The first part is the
catalogUE sales. This is pretty much legitimate (though I suspect that
Betterware would be a better deal), but does not provide a large income.

*No with the bonus system Kleeneze offer better payments*
basic B*tterware 20% can only deliver where your told which caps your income
Kleeneze 21% + Bonuses deliver where you want to therefore no cap on
potential I know of people who earn over £3000 every 4 weeks just from the
catalogue...I don't fancey it myself but it's there!

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
If you want to make a small income then Kleeneze catalog sales is
probably OK, but check for potential out of pocket expenses - I've read
reports of a couple of gotchas. It may well be better than some of the
agented sales businesses, which offload their working capital costs by
having the agents own and hold the stock.

Depends on you If you, you have to control your cash flow same with any
other business...that why most of us have got JOBs so other people can look
after the money.

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
The second part is the selling of distributorships. A few people make a
lot of money this way, but Kleeneze is often promoted as if this is a
reasonable prospect for the average participant. This is MLM, and is
inherently flawed.

Prove it...examples.

If the system is followed everyone can make some good money.
not everyone can make a hughe amount of money - mainly because their not
prepard to put in the required effort.

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
Even though Kleeneze are not directly responsible for
the worse excesses, their business model tacitly encourages them, and I
place Kleeneze with tobacco and gambling companies as unethical
businesses in which I will not invest, or otherwise patronise.

On what grounds?

Back up with Facts please.

Dave

[Stewart Robert Hinsley]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
The second part is the selling of distributorships. A few people make a
lot of money this way, but Kleeneze is often promoted as if this is a
reasonable prospect for the average participant. This is MLM, and is
inherently flawed.

Prove it...examples.

That it is promoted this way :-

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I thought you claimed that average
participant could make lots of money.

That it is flawed :-

It can be shown mathematically that at any one time the mean number of
direct downlines is less than one. From this it can also deduced that
the mode and median numbers are 0 or 1. (I'd guess that the mode is 0
and the median 1, but it depends on the exact topology of the tree.)

Therefore, if the network is static, the majority of people in the
network receive little or no residual income from their downline.

I do not find it plausible that the network can grow to a degree that
the majority of current and near-time entrant members of the network can
have large downlines. According to the last annual report from Kleeneze
PLC the annual turnover growth of Kleeneze UK (the MLM business) was
negligible (barely above inflation). This is still better than I
expected.

Alternatively, using a gross commission rate given by yourself, and
figures from the Kleeneze PLC annual report, about 2% of participants
could make an income averaging £50,000, provided everyone else got
nothing. You have led me to believe that the net commission rate is
considerably lower, so this 2% is a significant over estimate. Even if
one were to assume 100% turned of the 2% every year one would have to
participate for an unreasonable length of time (working for nothing)
before receiving the high level of income. Thus it is not a reasonable
prospect for the average participant.

Indeed, since there are 16,900 participants, if "hundreds of people are
earning massive incomes" then thousands are earning approximately
nothing.

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
If the system is followed everyone can make some good money.
not everyone can make a hughe amount of money - mainly because their not
prepard to put in the required effort.

According to what one reads on the net, in many MLM schemes the majority
of participants lose money. I didn't believe that Kleeneze fell into
this category (and in fact believed that losing money on Kleeneze is
difficult), but the low barriers to entry of the catalog sale business
means that competition should bring the returns on catalog sales down to
whatever is the lowest return potential participants will accept. As the
analysis above shows that catalog sales are the major component of the
income for the majority of members, I conclude that not only does not
everyone make 'good money', but at the most only a minority can make
'good money'.

You have convinced me that there is a non-negligible risk of losing
money through participation in Kleeneze, instead of merely working for a
pittance.

As for your claim that everyone could make a 'huge amount of money' if
they were prepared to put the required effort, where does all this money
come from? Perhaps it's your turn to provide evidence that the money is
available, with verifiable figures.

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
Even though Kleeneze are not directly responsible for
the worse excesses, their business model tacitly encourages them, and I
place Kleeneze with tobacco and gambling companies as unethical
businesses in which I will not invest, or otherwise patronise.

On what grounds?

There is a degree of subjectivity in opinions of what's ethical and
what's not ethical. For example I consider the National Lottery
unethical, and obviously many people differ.

There's a rough continuum between single-level referral marketing, which
would generally be considered to be ethical, and outright frauds like
Women Defrauding Women, which are almost universally considered
unethical. There is a subjective element in where the line is drawn, and
I draw it with most, if not all [1], MLM schemes, including Kleeneze, on
the unethical side of the line.

The grounds on which I consider Kleeneze unethical is that participation
in the pyramid is sold on the basis of returns which cannot be achieved
by the average participant, and that there is a cost for participation
in the pyramid. Kleeneze PLC do not appear to have taken steps to
prevent this occurring.

[1] I'm told that some MLM schemes are de facto buying clubs. If the
products are competitive in price and quality, and participants are not
led into buying products that they would not otherwise have done, then
these may lie on the ethical side of the line.

[Andrew]

hi

where does kleeneze get its money to pay its distributors ?
well I too was concerned about this when I first started but when it was
explained to me it was logical

lets take a conventional business such as one of the top supermarkets

firstly they market their products via stores which cost monies to build
secondly they have to stock their store and the stockholding much run into
millions within every store
thirdly they place TV adverts which bombard us daily

all of these cost centres reduce the profitability of the company somewhat
but they still make profit

so if we do not spend the money on store , stocking of same and TV adverts
not to mention rates water rate etc etc the savings made are simply spent
elsewhere..

We have just over 7000 active distributors not everyone has joined to make
big money some are just looking to top up their incomes , pensions etc .

The money is there for those who want it compare us to Avon they have a
£200m turnover in the Uk and pay for their catalogues every 3 weeks
they have 180,000 distributors in the Uk (source news release April 2003)

so with us having only half their turnover and less than 10% of their
distributors you can see why the company is buoyant about its business in
the future

Also check out the share price it has grown by over 200% in the past 12
months.

Andrew Bird
Bronze executive
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Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
The second part is the selling of distributorships. A few people make a
lot of money this way, but Kleeneze is often promoted as if this is a
reasonable prospect for the average participant. This is MLM, and is
inherently flawed.

Prove it...examples.

That it is promoted this way :-
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I thought you claimed that average
participant could make lots of money.
That it is flawed :-
It can be shown mathematically that at any one time the mean number of
direct downlines is less than one. From this it can also deduced that
the mode and median numbers are 0 or 1. (I'd guess that the mode is 0
and the median 1, but it depends on the exact topology of the tree.)
Therefore, if the network is static, the majority of people in the
network receive little or no residual income from their downline.
I do not find it plausible that the network can grow to a degree that
the majority of current and near-time entrant members of the network can
have large downlines. According to the last annual report from Kleeneze
PLC the annual turnover growth of Kleeneze UK (the MLM business) was
negligible (barely above inflation). This is still better than I
expected.
Alternatively, using a gross commission rate given by yourself, and
figures from the Kleeneze PLC annual report, about 2% of participants
could make an income averaging £50,000, provided everyone else got
nothing. You have led me to believe that the net commission rate is
considerably lower, so this 2% is a significant over estimate. Even if
one were to assume 100% turned of the 2% every year one would have to
participate for an unreasonable length of time (working for nothing)
before receiving the high level of income. Thus it is not a reasonable
prospect for the average participant.
Indeed, since there are 16,900 participants, if "hundreds of people are
earning massive incomes" then thousands are earning approximately
nothing.

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
If the system is followed everyone can make some good money.
not everyone can make a hughe amount of money - mainly because their not
prepard to put in the required effort.

According to what one reads on the net, in many MLM schemes the majority
of participants lose money. I didn't believe that Kleeneze fell into
this category (and in fact believed that losing money on Kleeneze is
difficult), but the low barriers to entry of the catalog sale business
means that competition should bring the returns on catalog sales down to
whatever is the lowest return potential participants will accept. As the
analysis above shows that catalog sales are the major component of the
income for the majority of members, I conclude that not only does not
everyone make 'good money', but at the most only a minority can make
'good money'.
You have convinced me that there is a non-negligible risk of losing
money through participation in Kleeneze, instead of merely working for a
pittance.
As for your claim that everyone could make a 'huge amount of money' if
they were prepared to put the required effort, where does all this money
come from? Perhaps it's your turn to provide evidence that the money is
available, with verifiable figures.

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
Even though Kleeneze are not directly responsible for
the worse excesses, their business model tacitly encourages them, and I
place Kleeneze with tobacco and gambling companies as unethical
businesses in which I will not invest, or otherwise patronise.

On what grounds?

There is a degree of subjectivity in opinions of what's ethical and
what's not ethical. For example I consider the National Lottery
unethical, and obviously many people differ.
There's a rough continuum between single-level referral marketing, which
would generally be considered to be ethical, and outright frauds like
Women Defrauding Women, which are almost universally considered
unethical. There is a subjective element in where the line is drawn, and
I draw it with most, if not all [1], MLM schemes, including Kleeneze, on
the unethical side of the line.
The grounds on which I consider Kleeneze unethical is that participation
in the pyramid is sold on the basis of returns which cannot be achieved
by the average participant, and that there is a cost for participation
in the pyramid. Kleeneze PLC do not appear to have taken steps to
prevent this occurring.
[1] I'm told that some MLM schemes are de facto buying clubs. If the
products are competitive in price and quality, and participants are not
led into buying products that they would not otherwise have done, then
these may lie on the ethical side of the line.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

[Tom Gardner]

Post by Andrew
hi
where does kleeneze get its money to pay its distributors ?
well I too was concerned about this when I first started but when it was
explained to me it was logical

I'm glad it is logical. I presume it so logical that you will
proceed to explain it in terms of Kleeneze's published accounts.
Stewart Robert Hines appears to have posted the basis accounts
on another thread; are the facts presented there true?

It wouldn't look very good if you tried to explain it by analogy
with a business in a different market sector (e.g. supermarkets)
or by other door-to-door companies (e.g. comsmetics).

Doing either of those things would make people wonder whether
it actually is simple and logical, or whether there might be
something less-than-transparent going on.

Post by Andrew
lets take a conventional business such as one of the top supermarkets
firstly they market their products via stores which cost monies to build
secondly they have to stock their store and the stockholding much run into
millions within every store
thirdly they place TV adverts which bombard us daily
all of these cost centres reduce the profitability of the company somewhat
but they still make profit
so if we do not spend the money on store , stocking of same and TV adverts
not to mention rates water rate etc etc the savings made are simply spent
elsewhere..
We have just over 7000 active distributors not everyone has joined to make
big money some are just looking to top up their incomes , pensions etc .
The money is there for those who want it compare us to Avon they have a
200m turnover in the Uk and pay for their catalogues every 3 weeks
they have 180,000 distributors in the Uk (source news release April 2003)
so with us having only half their turnover and less than 10% of their
distributors you can see why the company is buoyant about its business in
the future
Also check out the share price it has grown by over 200% in the past 12
months.
Andrew Bird
Bronze executive

[Andrew]

with regards to your response I was simply indicating that the monies they
pay out are monies gained by the moving of product and we decide to spend
more of that money on paying distributors and can afford to do so because of
the limited overheads we encounter.

secondly regard the summary by the aforementioned gentlemen through reading
his posting he has based his findings on info provided by another poster who
gave him % for just retailing which in its self is flawed
also he used wordings which indicated that the growth of the organisation as
virtually zero
seeing as 72 people joined our team last month I find this rather difficult
to believe

turnover last year was £100m
£57m was paid to the network


work it out for yourself if it is possible to earn £50k a year of course
it is
however putting a footnote on that mr Joe Boggs generally does not earn that
sort of money because they don't believe they can and they don't stay around
long enough to allow the business to grow sufficiently
but the fact remains that they could earn that sort of money and that was
the posting I believe by the original poster
today an income of £18k is the national average and this can be achieved by
quite a considerable amount of people
but you must take into account that quite a lot of people join this business
not to make mega bucks but to earn a few extra hundred pounds a week
in fact 73% of individuals actually never introduce anyone but there
actually hides the fact that you do not have to sponsor people in to make
money unlike other mlm businesses.

the other point was made that you have to pay to join but was the point ever
made that their reg fee of £75 is actually refunded to them after one year
in the business?
the company is not after their monies but their commitment
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Post by Tom Gardner

Post by Andrew
hi
where does kleeneze get its money to pay its distributors ?
well I too was concerned about this when I first started but when it was
explained to me it was logical

I'm glad it is logical. I presume it so logical that you will
proceed to explain it in terms of Kleeneze's published accounts.
Stewart Robert Hines appears to have posted the basis accounts
on another thread; are the facts presented there true?
It wouldn't look very good if you tried to explain it by analogy
with a business in a different market sector (e.g. supermarkets)
or by other door-to-door companies (e.g. comsmetics).
Doing either of those things would make people wonder whether
it actually is simple and logical, or whether there might be
something less-than-transparent going on.

Post by Andrew
lets take a conventional business such as one of the top supermarkets
firstly they market their products via stores which cost monies to build
secondly they have to stock their store and the stockholding much run into
millions within every store
thirdly they place TV adverts which bombard us daily
all of these cost centres reduce the profitability of the company somewhat
but they still make profit
so if we do not spend the money on store , stocking of same and TV adverts
not to mention rates water rate etc etc the savings made are simply spent
elsewhere..
We have just over 7000 active distributors not everyone has joined to make
big money some are just looking to top up their incomes , pensions etc .
The money is there for those who want it compare us to Avon they have a
200m turnover in the Uk and pay for their catalogues every 3 weeks
they have 180,000 distributors in the Uk (source news release April 2003)
so with us having only half their turnover and less than 10% of their
distributors you can see why the company is buoyant about its business in
the future
Also check out the share price it has grown by over 200% in the past 12
months.
Andrew Bird
Bronze executive

[Tom Gardner]

Post by Andrew
with regards to your response I was simply indicating that the monies they
pay out are monies gained by the moving of product and we decide to spend
more of that money on paying distributors and can afford to do so because
of the limited overheads we encounter.
secondly regard the summary by the aforementioned gentlemen through
reading his posting he has based his findings on info provided by another
poster who gave him % for just retailing which in its self is flawed
also he used wordings which indicated that the growth of the organisation
as virtually zero
seeing as 72 people joined our team last month I find this rather
difficult to believe

Well that's only half a point. How many joined and how many
left (or became inactive) during the last year -- don't
worry about individual months, since there's too much statistical
variation on a per-month basis. In addition restricting the answer
to your team may be misleading, e.g. if your team is especially
active or otherwise successful.

Post by Andrew
turnover last year was 100m

OK, that's the first half point. The second half point is the
profit. Many companies have a large turnover but a zero or
negative profit.

Post by Andrew
57m was paid to the network

I don't understand that jargon. What do you mean, please?

Post by Andrew
work it out for yourself if it is possible to earn 50k a year of course

Weak point; is is possible for me to run a 10 minute mile.
But highly unlikely :)

Post by Andrew
it is
however putting a footnote on that mr Joe Boggs generally does not earn
that sort of money because they don't believe they can and they don't stay
around long enough to allow the business to grow sufficiently

Interesting point. Why do they change their mind after a
(short?) while with the company?

Post by Andrew
but the fact remains that they could earn that sort of money and that was
the posting I believe by the original poster
today an income of 18k is the national average and this can be achieved by
quite a considerable amount of people
but you must take into account that quite a lot of people join this
business not to make mega bucks but to earn a few extra hundred pounds a
week in fact 73% of individuals actually never introduce anyone but there
actually hides the fact that you do not have to sponsor people in to make
money unlike other mlm businesses.
the other point was made that you have to pay to join but was the point
ever made that their reg fee of 75 is actually refunded to them after one
year in the business?
the company is not after their monies but their commitment

[Andrew]

Post by Tom Gardner

Post by Andrew
57m was paid to the network

I don't understand that jargon. What do you mean, please?

out of the retail sales of £100m £57m was paid out in commissions

Post by Tom Gardner
Weak point; is is possible for me to run a 10 minute mile.
But highly unlikely :)
Interesting point. Why do they change their mind after a
(short?) while with the company?

to be totally honest who knows ?
why do people leave jobs ?
why do some people join and never bother to do anything ?

[Martin Willett]

Post by Andrew

Post by Tom Gardner

Post by Andrew
57m was paid to the network

I don't understand that jargon. What do you mean, please?

out of the retail sales of £100m £57m was paid out in commissions

Post by Tom Gardner
Weak point; is is possible for me to run a 10 minute mile.
But highly unlikely :)
Interesting point. Why do they change their mind after a
(short?) while with the company?

to be totally honest who knows ?
why do people leave jobs ?
why do some people join and never bother to do anything ?

For many of them they start out by putting out as many catalogues as they
can afford and come to collect them and find 10% have been thrown away, 30%
rained on and some of the rest collected by the new Kleeneze distributor
started the week before by the bloke that started them. They put their order
in and find 20% of the stuff doesn't arrive and it takes them six trips to
deliver the stuff to where they decided to start, which will always be a
couple of miles away because they don't want their neighbours to know they
are shoving catalogues through doors for a living.

But I could just be a cynic and my direct experience counts as nothing
against the faith of those who believe with all their wallet.

[Paul Wilson]

Post by Martin Willett

Post by Andrew

Post by Tom Gardner

Post by Andrew
57m was paid to the network

I don't understand that jargon. What do you mean, please?

out of the retail sales of £100m £57m was paid out in commissions

Post by Tom Gardner
Weak point; is is possible for me to run a 10 minute mile.
But highly unlikely :)
Interesting point. Why do they change their mind after a
(short?) while with the company?

to be totally honest who knows ?
why do people leave jobs ?
why do some people join and never bother to do anything ?

For many of them they start out by putting out as many catalogues as they
can afford and come to collect them and find 10% have been thrown away, 30%

TRUE you do lose about 10% at the start until you build a customer base.

Post by Martin Willett
rained on and some of the rest collected by the new Kleeneze distributor

FALSE You can lose a few to bad weather but you figure of 30% is way off.
TRUE Occasionally another distributor may pick up one of your catalogues,but
if they've been trained properly this shouldn't happen.

started the week before by the bloke that started them. They put their order

FALSE Its very rare that items are missing from an order,and if they are
Kleeneze quickly solves the problem.

Post by Martin Willett
in and find 20% of the stuff doesn't arrive and it takes them six trips to

FALSE If it takes you six trips to deliver an order then you are not
organised.Most are done in one visit,a few will take two visits and rarely
more than that.If they are not in when you arrive,leave aslip or phone them.

Post by Martin Willett
deliver the stuff to where they decided to start, which will always be a
couple of miles away because they don't want their neighbours to know they
are shoving catalogues through doors for a living.

FALSE all my family and neighbours know what I do and they are pleased to
see me getting of my backside and earning a living instead of moaning about
life.

Post by Martin Willett
But I could just be a cynic and my direct experience counts as nothing
against the faith of those who believe with all their wallet.

HOW LONG DID YOU STAY WITH KLEENEZE?

WHEN WAS THIS?

HOW MANY CATALOGUES DID YOU DELIVER IN AN AVERAGE WEEK?

HOW MANY MEETINGS DID YOU GO TO?

Post by Martin Willett
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/

[Ken Johnson]

"Paul Wilson" <***@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:bopajs$p7v$***@sparta.btinternet.com...


Once again the person leaping to the defence of Pyramid-O-Junk stands to
gain from it financially.

Ken Johnson

[Paul Wilson]

Post by Ken Johnson
Once again the person leaping to the defence of Pyramid-O-Junk

(Better than I.T ten-a-penny computer geeks) stands to

Post by Ken Johnson
gain from it financially.

So if I gain financially isn't that proof that it works.

Post by Ken Johnson
Ken Johnson

[Ken Johnson]

Post by Paul Wilson
So if I gain financially isn't that proof that it works.

If I gained financially from breaking into peoples' houses, would that be
proof that it worked?

Ken Johnson

[Andrew]

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
The grounds on which I consider Kleeneze unethical is that participation
in the pyramid is sold on the basis of returns which cannot be achieved
by the average participant, and that there is a cost for participation
in the pyramid. Kleeneze PLC do not appear to have taken steps to
prevent this occurring.

I advertise kleeneze as the ability to make £4/600 per month part time and
as for the cost to get started it is only a deposit because it is refunded
to the participant after 12 mths in the business. After all everyone needs
tools to run a business no matter how small a turnover it makes and to just
give them away to people who may or may not use them is a sure way to
bankruptcy

Andy

[Paul Wilson]

Post by Andrew

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
The grounds on which I consider Kleeneze unethical is that participation
in the pyramid is sold on the basis of returns which cannot be achieved
by the average participant, and that there is a cost for participation

Pyramids are illegal in the UK and carry a minimum of 3 years in Jail for
anyone found operating one.MLM is legal.

Post by Andrew

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
in the pyramid. Kleeneze PLC do not appear to have taken steps to
prevent this occurring.

I advertise kleeneze as the ability to make £4/600 per month part time and
as for the cost to get started it is only a deposit because it is refunded
to the participant after 12 mths in the business. After all everyone needs
tools to run a business no matter how small a turnover it makes and to just
give them away to people who may or may not use them is a sure way to
bankruptcy
Andy

[Ken Johnson]

Post by Paul Wilson
Pyramids are illegal in the UK and carry a minimum of 3 years
in Jail for anyone found operating one. MLM is legal.

Of course MLM is legal! It was specifically designed to allow
Pyramid-O-Rubbish to continue trading in a similar fashion while getting
around the restrictions imposed by the law against pyramid selling.

Ken Johnson

[kele]

Post by Ken Johnson

Post by Paul Wilson
Pyramids are illegal in the UK and carry a minimum of 3 years
in Jail for anyone found operating one. MLM is legal.

Of course MLM is legal! It was specifically designed to allow
Pyramid-O-Rubbish to continue trading in a similar fashion while getting
around the restrictions imposed by the law against pyramid selling.
Ken Johnson

Hey Ken, chill out, calm down! All these postings, and for what?

You are beginning to start to rant like a certain Brother Tosspot.

Lets try and stick to the objective of this NG-finding jobs please, I'm sure
most folk are
up to speed about the pitfalls of MLM by now.

Regards,
Kele.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

[Ken Johnson]

Post by kele
Hey Ken, chill out, calm down!

Try to forgive me. I'm on mountains of drugs.

Ken Johnson

[Embassy]

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
There's two parts to the Kleeneze business model. The first part is the
catalog sales. This is pretty much legitimate (though I suspect that
Betterware would be a better deal), but does not provide a large income.

? Both the same idea.

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Embassy

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
There's two parts to the Kleeneze business model. The first part is the
catalog sales. This is pretty much legitimate (though I suspect that
Betterware would be a better deal), but does not provide a large income.

? Both the same idea.

Betterware was set up by two ex-Kleeneze distributors.

We both retail with catalogues....that's about it really.

Dave

[Martin Willett]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Embassy

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley
There's two parts to the Kleeneze business model. The first part is the
catalog sales. This is pretty much legitimate (though I suspect that
Betterware would be a better deal), but does not provide a large income.

? Both the same idea.

Betterware was set up by two ex-Kleeneze distributors.
We both retail with catalogues....that's about it really.

Yes, Betterware is a huge company with sales massively higher than Kleeneze
and Kleeneze is staffed entirely by "trainee millionaires". Kleeneze uses
distribution methods that ensure a toe-hold in a market but cannot cope with
market saturation. Betterware have divided the UK up into territories for
managers and distributors and ensure that there is neither overlap nor
significant areas uncovered. Territory is allocated, performance is
monitored, territory is re-allocated in the light of performance.

Kleeneze is virtually a free-for-all, the only reason it doesn't collapse
under the weight of its own success is the fact that it is never that
successful despite the efforts of the company to make every distributor a
recruiter.

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

"Martin Willett" <***@ntl.com> wrote a complete load of
Bollocks

Post by Martin Willett
Yes, Betterware is a huge company with sales massively higher than Kleeneze
and Kleeneze is staffed entirely by "trainee millionaires". Kleeneze uses
distribution methods that ensure a toe-hold in a market but cannot cope with
market saturation. Betterware have divided the UK up into territories for
managers and distributors and ensure that there is neither overlap nor
significant areas uncovered. Territory is allocated, performance is
monitored, territory is re-allocated in the light of performance.
Kleeneze is virtually a free-for-all, the only reason it doesn't collapse
under the weight of its own success is the fact that it is never that
successful despite the efforts of the company to make every distributor a
recruiter.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/

PML.

Dave

[Martin Willett]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
Bollocks

Post by Martin Willett
Yes, Betterware is a huge company with sales massively higher than

Kleeneze

Post by Martin Willett
and Kleeneze is staffed entirely by "trainee millionaires". Kleeneze uses
distribution methods that ensure a toe-hold in a market but cannot cope

with

Post by Martin Willett
market saturation. Betterware have divided the UK up into territories for
managers and distributors and ensure that there is neither overlap nor
significant areas uncovered. Territory is allocated, performance is
monitored, territory is re-allocated in the light of performance.
Kleeneze is virtually a free-for-all, the only reason it doesn't collapse
under the weight of its own success is the fact that it is never that
successful despite the efforts of the company to make every distributor a
recruiter.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/

PML.
Dave

OK, what did I say that was wrong? In 1985 I joined Kleeneze and they were
pushing the same pattern of sales growth through the trainee millionaire
approach. I made just about enough money to cover the cost of my investment
and I quit.

In 1990 I joined Betterware as a District Manager, no money up front, not a
penny. Full support from the company. I walked into a defined territory with
existing distributors and therefore money coming in already. I recruited and
built the business. I was promoted. I was responsible for an annual turnover
of £660,000. I have never made anything like as much money either before or
since. I had over 70 distributors and managers working under me. They never
had any problems with covering territory that had been covered the week
before or having their brochures and orders stolen by their colleagues. In
that time I would regularly come across Kleeneze distributors, a very mixed
bunch they were! Most of them were seen once and never again. They had paid
their money, bought their brochures given it a go and found it didn't work
for them. At that time Betterware were outselling Kleeneze about five to
one. As Regional Adviser with Betterware I got to know about all the
Kleeneze activities in my region as distributors would report it to their
Co-ordinators and on to me. It was very obvious that Kleeneze were a much
smaller operation and in most areas they had no long term presence.

When Betterware distributors or managers were sacked they often went to
Kleeneze. Most were never heard of again, including a distributor who had
worked for 35 years and knew every dodgy scam in the book.

If Kleeneze was as good an opportunity as these people make out then you
wouldn't be able to move for Kleeneze distributors. That isn't the case. I
know, I live in ideal direct door to door sales territory. We see a Kleeneze
brochure about twice a year, I can't recall ever seeing anybody delivering
Kleeneze products, but I've only lived here ten years. The house I'm living
in was bought with a mortgage I got on my Betterware earnings. As for my
Kleeneze earnings, they paid for the brochures I bought and some of the
petrol I used.

Kleeneze is like acting, to get to the top and make good money you have to
be really committed and prepared to do whatever it takes it get on. But it
isn't enough. All successful actors and Kleeneze people share that drive and
self-belief, as do most of the unsuccessful ones too, but the unsuccessful
ones tend not to be noticed, even though they are the vast majority.

[Stewart Robert Hinsley]

Post by Embassy
? Both the same idea.

Both are selling housewares (Kleeneze also have a "Health and Beauty"
range) through catalogues distributed door-to-door using a commission
only sales force.

Otherwise they're as different as chalk and cheese.

Even apart from the MLM aspect (Betterware appears not to be MLM) agent
sales/party plan schemes can be a bit dodgy. However, on first sight
Betterware looks kosher.

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

If where going to debate MLM let's back things up with facts.

quoting a website of a MLM failure does not count as factual evidence.

It's like saying I don't like that religion or race because my Dad didn't.

I'm sure you guys can do better than that! Or maybe that's why your all
still here?
over 40 years of age and stuck in the middle ages? Frightend of change?

Don't forget Franchising was slated back in the 50's as being a
scam.....though is one of the largest and fastest growing areas of business
today.

you mention that MLM is flawed. Isn't traditional employment?
work your backside off for an employer who gets rich from your efforts and
then downsizes and either brings in a machine to do your job or bring in
someone younger that will work harder for longer on less pay!

Then what? you pick up your pension which is about a 1/4 of your pay, so
you've worked hard all your life to earn less than some spotty kid whose got
a weekend job at Tesco.

"you can make excuses or you can make money.....you can't do both."

Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

Jim Rohn says:

Let others lead small lives...but not you.
Let others argue over small things...but not you.
Let others cry over small hurts...but not you.
Let other leave their future in other peoples hands....but not you.

[Ken Johnson]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
Don't forget Franchising was slated back in the 50's
as being a scam

Franchising has long been a perfectly respectable way of setting oneself up
in business, and plenty of household names (Macdonalds and Body Shop to name
the first two that come to mind) have grown by franchising. However, sadly,
franchising attracts scammers. Anyone thinking of taking on an MLM
"franchise" should have a look at a couple of real franchise schemes first,
so that they can see the difference e.g. in the extent of the franchisor's
obligations.

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
you mention that MLM is flawed. Isn't traditional employment?

Not in the same way. The problems you highlight (low wages and poor
pensions) are political problems.

Ken Johnson

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Ken Johnson
Franchising has long been a perfectly respectable way of setting oneself up
in business, and plenty of household names (Macdonalds and Body Shop to name
the first two that come to mind) have grown by franchising.

The Bodyshop has also moved product via MLM as have Virgin and Gilette

Post by Ken Johnson
However, sadly, franchising attracts scammers. Anyone thinking of taking

on an MLM

Post by Ken Johnson
"franchise" should have a look at a couple of real franchise schemes first,
so that they can see the difference e.g. in the extent of the franchisor's
obligations.

With MLM you basically become a franshisee and a franchisor...
the main difference is that you don't profit from a sign up fee, you make
money on increased product movement through your team.
Which you train and support.

Post by Ken Johnson

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
you mention that MLM is flawed. Isn't traditional employment?

Not in the same way. The problems you highlight (low wages and poor
pensions) are political problems.

So it's got nothing to do with bosses paying as little as they can get away
with so as to maximise profits?

Dave

[Ken Johnson]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
So it's got nothing to do with bosses paying as little as they can get away
with so as to maximise profits?

The difference between MLM and bona fide franchising has nothing to do with
etc. etc.

Ken Johnson

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Ken Johnson

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
So it's got nothing to do with bosses paying as little as they can get

away

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
with so as to maximise profits?

The difference between MLM and bona fide franchising has nothing to do with
etc. etc.
Ken Johnson

MLM and franchising share the same roots,

You mentioned Macdonalds it costs £340,000 to set up with OTE of around
£60,000.
so IF your successfull it'll take almost 6 years just to get your money
back. that's without any interest if you've had to borrow the money.

MLM is often refered to as "the peoples franchise" because it's open to
everyone.
but lets just make a comparison.

You can start a Kleeneze distributorship for £75 though I like people in my
team to make money so I always recomend the £150 package (more catalogues
will mean it's easier to hit the bonus levels in your first month) *I make
NOTHING from the £150*

If you follow a simple retail plan you'll make your money back and an extra
£200 in your first month. (some people don't stick to the plan then moan
that they don't make enough money...sh*t happens! our plan takes around 12
hours per week).

Ok first comparison.

after four weeks with macdonalds your profits equal -£340K
after four weeks with Kleeneze your profits equal £200

by following the simple retail plan your costs will be aprox £25 per 4
weekly period and through building a customer base your earnings will be
around the £500 mark every 4 weeks. earnings = (13x500) £650 less expenses
of £150 and (£25x13) £475 Profits in first year £6000.

but lets say your also going to build a team retail will be the same as the
above but you're going to need a team building budget of £100 but for sake
of argument lets say you spend £200 every 4 weeks. folowing our team
building plan your income should grow by £100 per month but lets say you get
of to a slow start and your team dosn't start to grow until period 3 giving
you just 10 periods of income. Earnings equal (£100+£100 each month) £5500
less expenses of £2900 Profits in first year of £2900.

Second comparison.

first year in MacDonalds -£280K (£340K less £60K earnings)
first year in Kleeneze £8900 (retail £6000 + £2900 team building)

Second year growth the same as first though retail stays the same.
team grows at £100 every 4 weeks. with costs the same at £200

Third comparison

second year with MacDonalds -£220K (£340- 2x(£60K))
second year with Kleeneze £23700 (retail £6000 + £17700 team building)

Just by maintaining the same growth and consistant retail Kleeneze continues
to be profitable.

Forth Comparison

third year with MacDonalds -£160K (£340K - 3x(£60K))
third year with Kleeneze £42400 (retail £6000 + £36400 team building)

Forth year with MacDonalds -£100K
forth year with Kleeneze £59300 (retail £6000 + £53300 team building)

fifth year with MacDonalds -£40K
fifth year with Kleeneze £76200 (retail £6000 + £70200 team building)

Do I need to go on?

Now the interesting part here is that MacDonalds are going to own you for
100 hours plus each week while your business grows.
You Can build Kleeneze on around 20 to 25 hours per week.
The Key with Kleeneze is consistant effort.
Some people fail with Kleeneze because they don't treat it as a business
which it is.
but don't forget many many people join Kleeneze just for an extra £300 a
month to pay the mortgage, holiday etc. etc. etc.

Okay some MLM companys are much harder than Kleeneze because they've only
got one product which people either buy or they don't or they're in very
competitive markets like telecomms with profit margins being squeezed
constantly.

Kleeneze works for everyone that puts in the work.
IT IS HARD WORK, but the rewards are there for those that do the graft.

Now shall I tell you about the cars, holidays, cash rewards,
trophys???????????


Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

[Ken Johnson]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
Now shall I tell you about the cars, holidays, cash
rewards, trophys???????????

That's up to you: a scam is a scam, whatever goodies the scammers may award
each other. To raise just one point of the dozen that immediately suggest
themselves, with a Macdonalds franchise it is clear what the franchisee is
getting for his money (and incidentally your arithmetic is false, but I
can't be bothered explaining why). For example, the franchisor often
assigns an exclusive territory to the franchisee, provides advertising
material and sales promotion, specifies the product, provides guidelines and
standards, makes recommendations on equipment and premises etc. etc.

With Betterclean, or whatever it is, there is no good reason at all to shell
out for the "franchise." Anyone can have catalogues printed cheaply, buy
some product from their local cash and carry, and hawk it from door to door.
With some effort they may be able to generate a turnover of a few hundred
pounds a week, and if their arithmetic is as wobbly as yours they may well
confuse this with profit, as you seem to have done. The MLM merely provides
a mechanism for moving money from the entry level punters to the upline.

Add to that the way that MLM schemes advertise ludicrously over-inflated
promises (Retire in 3 to 4 years, says a plug for Telecom Plus that I saw
today) and usually leave out of their advertising any reference to what the
business actually is, and you have a scam.

I'm fed up with this thread now. By their fruits shall ye know them.
Cheerio!

Ken Johnson

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Ken Johnson

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
Now shall I tell you about the cars, holidays, cash
rewards, trophys???????????

That's up to you: a scam is a scam, whatever goodies the scammers may award
each other. To raise just one point of the dozen that immediately suggest
themselves, with a Macdonalds franchise it is clear what the franchisee is
getting for his money (and incidentally your arithmetic is false, but I
can't be bothered explaining why).

You're right I didn't mention the running costs of MacDonalds.
and it was a generalization.

For example, the franchisor often
assigns an exclusive territory to the franchisee, provides advertising
material and sales promotion, specifies the product, provides guidelines
and
standards, makes recommendations on equipment and premises etc. etc.

and takes a good percentage of turnover for all the advertising material
etc. etc. etc.

Post by Ken Johnson
With Betterclean, or whatever it is, there is no good reason at all to shell
out for the "franchise." Anyone can have catalogues printed cheaply,

catalogues printed cheaply! any idea where? at such a low volume?

buy

Post by Ken Johnson
some product from their local cash and carry, and hawk it from door to door.
With some effort they may be able to generate a turnover of a few hundred
pounds a week, and if their arithmetic is as wobbly as yours they may well
confuse this with profit, as you seem to have done. The MLM merely provides
a mechanism for moving money from the entry level punters to the upline.

Nothing wrong with my arithmatic Ken...that's why I'm gainfully employed
own a percentage of a trad business and makeing decent money with Kleeneze.

Post by Ken Johnson
Add to that the way that MLM schemes advertise ludicrously over-inflated
promises (Retire in 3 to 4 years, says a plug for Telecom Plus that I saw
today) and usually leave out of their advertising any reference to what the
business actually is, and you have a scam.

That's not the company that's the idiots who push it and the reason why
"generally" they're not succesful.
I've always told it how it is warts an all, because afeter all the crap it's
still a good opportunity.
Besides ask a Telecom plus guy how much he's earning and the chances are he
either wont tell you or he wont back it up.
I will and always have.

Post by Ken Johnson
I'm fed up with this thread now. By their fruits shall ye know them.
Cheerio!
Ken Johnson

Of course Ken.

you allways do get tired when your losing the aurgument.

and once you accept the fact that Kleeneze works (for those that work it)
and is a genuine opportunity.
I'll stop pulling you up over your bullsh*t comments and leave you to
uk.job.fortyplus to talk as much trash as you like.

Dave
www.the-future-is.co.uk

[Ken Johnson]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
you allways do get tired when your losing the aurgument.

I don't think anyone cares whether I'm winning any argument, least of all
me. Anyone who wants to know whether it's worth spending money on
Betterclean etc. has only to search the net for reviews of MLM written by
people who have no financial interest in enticing punters into a particular
scheme. That, and look on Ebay for Betterclean products which ex-punters
are desperate to get rid of.

Must go now.

Ken Johnson

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

"Ken Johnson" <***@SPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:jH4ob.73$***@news-text.cableinet.net...

look on Ebay for Betterclean products which ex-punters
are desperate to get rid of.

Post by Ken Johnson
Ken Johnson

I use Ebay daily Ken, There is very rarley any current product listed.

if your refering to to "palletts" of ex-Kleeneze stock. that tends to be
damaged stock that has been returned to Kleeneze.
how it ends up on ebay christ only knows but it's not distributors that put
it up.

Besides we only order the product that we've already got orders for.
unlike many businesses (even most MLM businesess) we don't carry any stock.
so no cash is tied up.

Dave...

I don't care if your losing the plot either Ken.
Like I said before once you stop talking rubbish I'll go away.

[Embassy]

Post by Ken Johnson

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
Now shall I tell you about the cars, holidays, cash
rewards, trophys???????????

That's up to you: a scam is a scam, whatever goodies the scammers may award
each other.

Ken can ou please explain with your own experience why Kleeneze is a scam.
It looks OK to me if you get the brochures out as explained further on.

Why is it a scam? Where is the catch?

Sorry but you have not given proof by experience, just generally knocking
Kleeneze and Betterware etc which a door to door retailing.

What should I be looking for if I start either one or the other?

[Andrew]

where are you based mate ?
you need to have the right support structure to help you and also local
training meetings etc

Andrew bird
bronze exec
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Post by Embassy

Post by Ken Johnson

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
Now shall I tell you about the cars, holidays, cash
rewards, trophys???????????

That's up to you: a scam is a scam, whatever goodies the scammers may

award

Post by Ken Johnson
each other.

Ken can ou please explain with your own experience why Kleeneze is a scam.
It looks OK to me if you get the brochures out as explained further on.
Why is it a scam? Where is the catch?
Sorry but you have not given proof by experience, just generally knocking
Kleeneze and Betterware etc which a door to door retailing.
What should I be looking for if I start either one or the other?

[Stewart Robert Hinsley]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
by following the simple retail plan your costs will be aprox £25 per 4
weekly period and through building a customer base your earnings will be
around the £500 mark every 4 weeks. earnings = (13x500) £650 less expenses
of £150 and (£25x13) £475 Profits in first year £6000.

From Kleeneze's annual report.

Annual turnover £86.3m [1]
Number of distributors 16,900 [2]

Calculated from the above.

Annual turnover per distributor £5,100 [3]

Amount paid out in commission (according to Dave Smith) 21%

Then

Mean income per distributor £1,070 [3]
less advertising and distribution costs charged
less payments to upline?

All I can say is, I hadn't realised how bad a deal a Kleeneze
distributorship was. In fact it's so bad I'm wondering where my
calculations have gone wrong.

[1] Kleeneze UK, i.e. not including Farepak or DMG.
[2] Also Kleeneze UK. This is the year end number, and it would be
better to use the time-average number, which is not available, but would
increase the turnover per distributor and mean income by about 5%.
[3] Marginally rounded down.

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
by following the simple retail plan your costs will be aprox £25 per 4
weekly period and through building a customer base your earnings will be
around the £500 mark every 4 weeks. earnings = (13x500) £650 less expenses
of £150 and (£25x13) £475 Profits in first year £6000.

From Kleeneze's annual report.
Annual turnover £86.3m [1]
Number of distributors 16,900 [2]
Calculated from the above.
Annual turnover per distributor £5,100 [3]
Amount paid out in commission (according to Dave Smith) 21%
Then
Mean income per distributor £1,070 [3]
less advertising and distribution costs charged
less payments to upline?
All I can say is, I hadn't realised how bad a deal a Kleeneze
distributorship was. In fact it's so bad I'm wondering where my
calculations have gone wrong.
[1] Kleeneze UK, i.e. not including Farepak or DMG.
[2] Also Kleeneze UK. This is the year end number, and it would be
better to use the time-average number, which is not available, but would
increase the turnover per distributor and mean income by about 5%.
[3] Marginally rounded down.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

No payment to upline those are dealt with by Kleeneze.

was talking to a business Development manager the other day who told me that
of the 16,000 or so distributors only
8000 are active. the others still have there books under their beds...it's
these guys who then say ohh Kleeneze's crap.
but they didn't get of their backsides to work it...

DMG is no longer a Kleeneze company, it was sold for a £30m loss (I think
can't remember the exact figure) whixh has had an impact on the overall
performace.
it's not been a good year for retialers in general with many reporting
figures way down on last year. we've faired better than most but can't say
that we haven't been affected.

also not everyone joins to make £6000 a year people join for different
reasons some are quite happy with an extra £200 a month to keep them in beer
money...


Dave

[Paul Wilson]

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
by following the simple retail plan your costs will be aprox £25 per 4
weekly period and through building a customer base your earnings will be
around the £500 mark every 4 weeks. earnings = (13x500) £650 less

expenses

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
of £150 and (£25x13) £475 Profits in first year £6000.

From Kleeneze's annual report.
Annual turnover £86.3m [1]
Number of distributors 16,900 [2]
Calculated from the above.
Annual turnover per distributor £5,100 [3]
Amount paid out in commission (according to Dave Smith) 21%
Then
Mean income per distributor £1,070 [3]
less advertising and distribution costs charged
less payments to upline?
All I can say is, I hadn't realised how bad a deal a Kleeneze
distributorship was. In fact it's so bad I'm wondering where my
calculations have gone wrong.
[1] Kleeneze UK, i.e. not including Farepak or DMG.
[2] Also Kleeneze UK. This is the year end number, and it would be
better to use the time-average number, which is not available, but would
increase the turnover per distributor and mean income by about 5%.
[3] Marginally rounded down.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

No payment to upline those are dealt with by Kleeneze.
was talking to a business Development manager the other day who told me that
of the 16,000 or so distributors only
8000 are active. the others still have there books under their beds...it's
these guys who then say ohh Kleeneze's crap.
but they didn't get of their backsides to work it...

EXACTLY - they won't put in the work and never attend meetings,then wonder
why they don't succeed.Well,they don't need to do they because one day
they'll win the LOTTO...............won't they?

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
DMG is no longer a Kleeneze company, it was sold for a £30m loss (I think
can't remember the exact figure) whixh has had an impact on the overall
performace.
it's not been a good year for retialers in general with many reporting
figures way down on last year. we've faired better than most but can't say
that we haven't been affected.
also not everyone joins to make £6000 a year people join for different
reasons some are quite happy with an extra £200 a month to keep them in beer
money...
Dave

[Andrew]

21% basic is for all
bonuses of up to a further 16% can be gained by distributors
a further % of between 1 & 4% is paid in royalty bonuses
no money is given by one distributor to another
a total of 57% of all retail sales goes to distributors.

betterware is a company which restricts incomes by designating areas and
also stocks some 75% less products but each one to his own I say
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Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley

Post by Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk
by following the simple retail plan your costs will be aprox £25 per 4
weekly period and through building a customer base your earnings will be
around the £500 mark every 4 weeks. earnings = (13x500) £650 less expenses
of £150 and (£25x13) £475 Profits in first year £6000.

From Kleeneze's annual report.
Annual turnover £86.3m [1]
Number of distributors 16,900 [2]
Calculated from the above.
Annual turnover per distributor £5,100 [3]
Amount paid out in commission (according to Dave Smith) 21%
Then
Mean income per distributor £1,070 [3]
less advertising and distribution costs charged
less payments to upline?
All I can say is, I hadn't realised how bad a deal a Kleeneze
distributorship was. In fact it's so bad I'm wondering where my
calculations have gone wrong.
[1] Kleeneze UK, i.e. not including Farepak or DMG.
[2] Also Kleeneze UK. This is the year end number, and it would be
better to use the time-average number, which is not available, but would
increase the turnover per distributor and mean income by about 5%.
[3] Marginally rounded down.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

[Martin Willett]

Post by Andrew
21% basic is for all
bonuses of up to a further 16% can be gained by distributors
a further % of between 1 & 4% is paid in royalty bonuses
no money is given by one distributor to another
a total of 57% of all retail sales goes to distributors.
betterware is a company which restricts incomes by designating areas and
also stocks some 75% less products but each one to his own I say
--

When you say "stocks" do you mean "has in the catalogue" or "actually has
available when the customer orders it"? I met many Kleeneze distributors who
wouldn't believe me when I described the modest out-of-stock problems with
Betterware, Kleeneze were notorious for out-of-stock items which were a
serious bummer for distributors who had already spent the money they thought
they would be earning from their efforts.

With Betterware the income is restricted, there is a limit to how much each
territory can produce, but a full time distributor can earn as much as a
factory worker and a manager can earn more than the average income, all with
flexibility and personal control. I recruited many people to work for
Betterware, many left, but none felt seriously abused or misled, it is
reasonable work for reasonable rewards.

[Dave Smith - www.the-future-is.co.uk]

Post by Martin Willett

Post by Andrew
21% basic is for all
bonuses of up to a further 16% can be gained by distributors
a further % of between 1 & 4% is paid in royalty bonuses
no money is given by one distributor to another
a total of 57% of all retail sales goes to distributors.
betterware is a company which restricts incomes by designating areas and
also stocks some 75% less products but each one to his own I say
--

When you say "stocks" do you mean "has in the catalogue" or "actually has
available when the customer orders it"? I met many Kleeneze distributors who
wouldn't believe me when I described the modest out-of-stock problems with
Betterware, Kleeneze were notorious for out-of-stock items which were a
serious bummer for distributors who had already spent the money they thought
they would be earning from their efforts.
With Betterware the income is restricted, there is a limit to how much each
territory can produce, but a full time distributor can earn as much as a
factory worker and a manager can earn more than the average income, all with
flexibility and personal control. I recruited many people to work for
Betterware, many left, but none felt seriously abused or misled, it is
reasonable work for reasonable rewards.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/

Martin please stop trying to compare Kleeneze with Betterware.
you said it all when you mentioned "restrict earnings".
We all know that many Betterware distributors have trouble reading and
writing let alone anything else.
98% of Kleeneze product in stock. 1600+ products
have no idea what Betterwares stock are like but they've only got 600
products.

Why on earth would I want to earn the same as someone in a factory?

Dave

[Paul Wilson]

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley

Post by Martin Willett

Post by Andrew
21% basic is for all
bonuses of up to a further 16% can be gained by distributors
a further % of between 1 & 4% is paid in royalty bonuses
no money is given by one distributor to another
a total of 57% of all retail sales goes to distributors.
betterware is a company which restricts incomes by designating areas and
also stocks some 75% less products but each one to his own I say
--

When you say "stocks" do you mean "has in the catalogue" or "actually has
available when the customer orders it"? I met many Kleeneze distributors

who

Post by Martin Willett
wouldn't believe me when I described the modest out-of-stock problems with
Betterware, Kleeneze were notorious for out-of-stock items which were a
serious bummer for distributors who had already spent the money they

thought

Post by Martin Willett
they would be earning from their efforts.

No comparison..........Betterware have restricted incomes,Kleeneze is
unlimited if you work hard.
I've been with Kleeneze and have a customer base of well over 400 plus a
small team of distributors.My business is growing by the day and helps other
to do the same.

Post by Stewart Robert Hinsley

Post by Martin Willett
With Betterware the income is restricted, there is a limit to how much

each

Post by Martin Willett
territory can produce, but a full time distributor can earn as much as a
factory worker and a manager can earn more than the average income, all

with

Post by Martin Willett
flexibility and personal control. I recruited many people to work for
Betterware, many left, but none felt seriously abused or misled, it is
reasonable work for reasonable rewards.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/

Martin please stop trying to compare Kleeneze with Betterware.
you said it all when you mentioned "restrict earnings".
We all know that many Betterware distributors have trouble reading and
writing let alone anything else.
98% of Kleeneze product in stock. 1600+ products
have no idea what Betterwares stock are like but they've only got 600
products.
Why on earth would I want to earn the same as someone in a factory?
Dave

[Ken Johnson]

# betterware is a company which restricts incomes
# by designating areas


Designating territories is a common feature in franchises. Firstly it
restricts the number of franchise holders, which means the scheme cannot
operate as a chain letter. Secondly it ensures that every franchisee has an
agreed population from which to draw customers.

Ken Johnson

[Paul Wilson]

Post by Ken Johnson
# betterware is a company which restricts incomes
# by designating areas
Designating territories is a common feature in franchises. Firstly it
restricts the number of franchise holders, which means the scheme cannot
operate as a chain letter. Secondly it ensures that every franchisee has an
agreed population from which to draw customers.
Ken Johnson

I understand your point.However it is true that MOST customers will buy from
ANY Kleeneze distributor so territory is not a problem.

[Ken Johnson]

I understand your point. However it is true that MOST
customers will buy from ANY Kleeneze distributor so
territory is not a problem.

If you think about this for a few days, the flaw in your reasoning will
probably become obvious to you.

Ken Johnson

[Martin Willett]

Post by Ken Johnson
# betterware is a company which restricts incomes
# by designating areas
Designating territories is a common feature in franchises. Firstly it
restricts the number of franchise holders, which means the scheme cannot
operate as a chain letter. Secondly it ensures that every

franchisee has an

Post by Ken Johnson
agreed population from which to draw customers.
Ken Johnson

Designating areas makes perfect sense for a company which has every
intention of maximising its own income and overall sales (therefore
also total earnings) rather than maximising the income of those lucky
jerks who managed to "get in on the ground floor", people who make a
continuing stream of money because they managed to recruit somebody
who has gone on being successful. People in that position will always
portray that as down to hard work and dedication and nothing to do
with luck, while ignoring the efforts of people who seem to put in
more hours, make more efforts and yet still fail to make any money,
there must be something wrong with their souls, they aren't the elect.

Nobody wants to believe that they are rich because of luck or a scam
so they portray whatever way they made it as right and just. Everybody
portrays themselves as worthy of their income (or more) including
kings, Mafia bosses, lottery winners, dole scroungers, bimbo wives of
billionaires and Kleeneze middlemen making a rack-off from people
recruited by people recruited by people recruited by people they
recruited four years before.

I have met dozens of people who have been involved in Kleeneze and
there really is no way to tell who is doing well or not by looking at
how hard they work, the effort they put in or even the attitude they
display.

The secret of success in Kleeneze is to recruit people who are harder
working, more dedicated, and more committed than you are and let them
make money for you. If a Kleeneze person spends time talking to you
take it as a compliment. And then tell them to fuck off.

[BG]

Post by Martin Willett
I have met dozens of people who have been involved in Kleeneze and
there really is no way to tell who is doing well or not by looking at
how hard they work, the effort they put in or even the attitude they
display.

You don't exactly see the Kleeneze people invited to the rich and famous
parties to rub legs with Victoria Beckham do you?

[Glenn Ludlow]

Post by Martin Willett
The secret of success in Kleeneze is to recruit people who are harder
working, more dedicated, and more committed than you are and let them
make money for you. If a Kleeneze person spends time talking to you
take it as a compliment. And then tell them to fuck off.

Ooops yet another person with no clue about what he is preaching,
showing his immaturity with bad language. i assume you tried it, found
you were not capable of success, quit and now feel obliged to put the
opportunity down.

If you feel bad about Kleeneze why not just ignore the thread?

Many people are earning varying levels from Kleeneze depending on what
they desire, those that want £200 a month extra can earn it no problem
(those that think they want it but are more used to handholding and
state handouts cry because there is work to do, leave and go to
Betterware, put out thir free catalogues and decide because there is
no financial commitment and it is raining that they won't bother going
back to pick them up), those that want a reasonable income of £1k to
£2k every 4 weeks can do so either by large levels of retail or more
efficiently by sponsoring others and helping them to earn extra cash.
If you want more then you have to put in the work that deserves the
level you desire.

The biggest problem with Kleeneze is it is too cheap and attracts
people that really join as they are too lazy and have no work ethic.
these people quit and end up badmouthing the business which brings us
nicely back to our friend Mr Willett....

[Andrew]

hi martin

I respect your articles you wrote in comparison with better however I am not
sure if you are aware that farepak plc took then over and changed the whole
stock system as out of stocks was so high
they are now negligible and we now have 24 hr turn round ie distributor
orders Monday b4 12 gets delivery Tuesday.

best regards

Andy
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Post by Martin Willett

Post by Andrew
21% basic is for all
bonuses of up to a further 16% can be gained by distributors
a further % of between 1 & 4% is paid in royalty bonuses
no money is given by one distributor to another
a total of 57% of all retail sales goes to distributors.
betterware is a company which restricts incomes by designating areas and
also stocks some 75% less products but each one to his own I say
--

When you say "stocks" do you mean "has in the catalogue" or "actually has
available when the customer orders it"? I met many Kleeneze distributors who
wouldn't believe me when I described the modest out-of-stock problems with
Betterware, Kleeneze were notorious for out-of-stock items which were a
serious bummer for distributors who had already spent the money they thought
they would be earning from their efforts.
With Betterware the income is restricted, there is a limit to how much each
territory can produce, but a full time distributor can earn as much as a
factory worker and a manager can earn more than the average income, all with
flexibility and personal control. I recruited many people to work for
Betterware, many left, but none felt seriously abused or misled, it is
reasonable work for reasonable rewards.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/

[Andrew]

embassy if your interested in a chat
ring me on 0116 2330966

cheers

Andy
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Post by Embassy
Why a scam?
Looks genuine and I am interested in earning some extra cash.

[Jody]

Post by Embassy
Why a scam?
Looks genuine and I am interested in earning some extra cash.

'taint no scam mate :-)) Me and the missus makes quite a bit every 4 weeks
:-)) Retail only but be reguler :-)) you get yer regular customers, but
keep an eye on Betterwear and be ahead of them :-))